Hi, I'm Kevin: I am unclean and an infidel, and I just may be, worthy of life ?

Kevin:

Excellent article, my friend!! And yes, you're absolutely worthy and should be respected... As would anyone else.

Basic right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, as our Constitution says.

Fada ,

I am an atheist living in Egypt ...should I seek asylum to save my head?

I'm guessing you are not someone who espouses your beliefs to your
neighbors . That could have serious repercussions even in Egypt . And saying that at a mosque is a very bad idea .

kpr37

What is YUSUFALI? and why do you think that all Egyptians are interested in those quotes whoever the one who announced them?..I guess that you are talking about the retarded fundamentalists not about the majority of ordinary people whose sons and daughters 'the new generation' are learning in private schools 'schools of languages' and those private schools don.t impose religion in the obligatory curriculum or in final exam

nonStitiousZealot

I don't have to announce my belief in public not because my neighbours will hurt me 'most of them are not strictly religious people ' it's just my business and I 'm sure that .they all can infer very simply that I am an atheist ..they have never seen me praying or pronouncing words from Quraan or covering my hair and they notice that I feel uncomfortable if any veiled woman tried to talk to me about religion ..I just walk away from her

say everyone who is not Muslim must submit or die

Wow I didn't know that this is Egypt's faith , now I know why I see piles of dead bodies every day in every street , I'm trapped. If they are for killing 10 million christian what they will do to me the athiest?

A majority of Egyptians claim that Islam is Egypt's faith, Fada, your own atheism notwithstanding. Islam has been institutionalized into Egyptian government since the mid-7th century C.E., when Egypt was conquered by the armies of Umar, the second Caliph, under the command of Amr ibn al-As.

And according to the Koran and the ahadith, it is a tenet of Islam that all the world should submit to Allah and acknowledge Mohammed as Allah's prophet, or die. I understand that you, yourself, may not endorse that viewpoint; but unfortunately you do not appear to represent the majority.

A majority of Egyptians claim that Islam is Egypt's faith

So what? this is not what I I commented at , I meant this part ''the parts that say everyone who is not Muslim must submit or die, and the parts that say women are inferior to men''

Did you visit Egypt? or just reading the daily output of media that is obcessed with religious hallucination of small fundamentalist group? I'm a woman and doctor and no one dares to violate my rights or tell me to pray or wear viel or stop writing against all religions in local media

We have civil laws that forbid discrimination for gender or religion. I am not saying that every citizen abide by law , there is minority of bigots in every country , our bigots use religion to get power over minorities and women ''those make the news'' but they can't do more than screaming out bigotry , if they hurt a woman or attacked minority they get arrested

Fada, hhabilis, attending Viners;

Fada, if you are able,

I, and I am sure, many would appreciate your view of Iranians and your view of Turks,
ethnically, culturally, Religiously;

i.e., perceivable Turkish Pride, as "The Conquerors",
and, perceivable Persian Pride, as "The Oldest Cultured Race and Most Perfect.

if you feel that,
we, 'Fellow Viners',would appreciate,
an Egyptian, Non-Religious, 'Modern Woman', Doctor's, "Point-of-VIEW" (!).

Hi Mork , this is alot of issues and alot of conflicting historical and modern views to be qnswered altogether in one seed

Let us say in brief that modern Turkey is not the conquror religious Ottomani of the past, it seeks a big role non-interventive in the middle east to boost its economy and tourism after dropping the old vie for EU membership . Turkey's interests let me believe that it will resume good relations with Israel but it will keep eyes on good relations with Arab either

Persian pride? what's wrong in that? they have great civilization. Their current stupid leadership is the only problem but the people are nice and intelligent. Media is playing political game by attacking everything in Iran and ignoring the bright views. I'm totally against nuclear weapons ''especially in the middle east'' but why focussing at Iran alone? Why not dismantling nuclear arsenal in Pakistan and India and Israel? Who guranttees that nuclear weapons in any of those countries will not be a threat one day against some other country? They all ''are , were , will'' be in war with some neighbour , Iran is not in war , its belligerancy is a vocal phenomena

Iran is not in war , its belligerancy is a vocal phenomena

I wish it were that simple . Iran is engaged in war through proxies . They support Hamas & Hezbollah in their efforts against Israel . And let's not forget the fatwah against Salmon Rushdie . That still hasn't been rescinded .

This makes the problem should be with those proxies , beating Iran will not erase Hamas and Hezbullah. Irani regime is too stubborn to deal with especially with force

Salaman Rushdi is threatened by fatwa since long time, did Iran yeild to any pressure?

Did you visit Egypt? or just reading the daily output of media that is obcessed with religious hallucination of small fundamentalist group?

Well, the Muslim Brotherhood just scored about 40% of the vote, and the "hallucinogenic" Salfists about 25%, in the most educated 1st round areas of voting [Cairo and Alexandria]. Those percentages are sure to rise in the next round(s) with the rural votes.

How small are the fundamentalist numbers again Fada?

How small are the fundamentalist numbers

Very small , this is what they said in TV showing their surprise to get between 15 to 20% 'not 25%' of vote.

The party’s Cairo-based spokesperson Mohamed Nour// Sherif says that by the end of three rounds of voting, he expects the Nour Party will secure between 15 to 20 percent of the vote

But no one of us 'the educated' is surprised in free election to see them get votes from the ignorant poor population who Salafi catered with food and money in their campaign allover 4 months

I still not aware of what you'r implying to? Do you really still thinking that some bearded PM who are ignorant in politics will grab the unprecedential Super power that ''Mullah council of Iran is holding over the president and and military government?

So you you are talking about another Egypt though it is none of my interest how and what non-Egyptian think or believe

Salafi are trying to soften their discourse after election because they are now under fierce attacks from media and most of political and social leagues even from brotherhood

Dear Fada,

I wrote:

How small are the fundamentalist numbers again Fada?

You replied:

Very small , this is what they said in TV showing their surprise to get between 15 to 20% 'not 25%' of vote.

You then inserted a quote from somewhere as follows:

The party's Cairo-based spokesperson Mohamed Nour// Sherif says that by the end of three rounds of voting, he expects the Nour Party will secure between 15 to 20 percent of the vote

It seems, however, that your information is outdated. Here is an MSNBC article from Reuters, updated 5 hours ago.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41324087#.Tt-o5WOP65B

This latest information has the al-Nour Salafists gaining 24% of the vote in the opening round. Quoted from the article as follows:

But the real surprise in the opening ballot was the success of the ultra-conservative Salafi al-Nour party, which secured 24 percent of the vote and went head-to-head with the Brotherhood in 24 of the run-offs.

So whose information is more accurate? You claim that the Salafists won, or will win, between 15-20% of the votes. My news source from five hours ago states that al-Nour won 24% of the vote in only the first round. That, in the most well-educated areas including Cairo and Alexandria.

Then you sneer at me:

So you you are talking about another Egypt though it is none of my interest how and what non-Egyptian think or believe

Isn't it ironic that the non-Egyptian, whom you have no interest in nor care about, has far better factual information about the Egyptian election(s) than the haughty Egyptian who is actually there? (though perhaps with blinders on).

Open your eyes Fada, it's worse than you are wishing it to be.

p.s. This was the msnbc article that I based my initial post on:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45540682/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/islamists-dominate-latest-egypt-election-results/#.Tt-5tGOP65A

The High Election Commission said the Islamic fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood's Freedom and Justice Party garnered 36.6 percent of the 9.7 million valid ballots cast for party lists. The Nour Party, a more hardline Islamist group, captured 24.4 percent.

I was going by recall and was off by about 3% for the Muslim Brotherhood total. Spot on for al-Nour though which was the figure in dispute.

Official results, however, will not be registered until this coming Friday.

And this from the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace (citing official Egyptian sources):

Preliminary Election Results

On December 4, the head of Egypt's High Electoral Commission (HEC), Abd al-Moaz Ahmed Ibrahim, announced the final results of the first round of the first stage of the elections. Runoff elections in the same districts will be held December 5-6.

Voter Turnout

On December 5, the HEC announced that the turnout figure for the first round of the first-stage elections was 52 percent.

Overall Votes

The HEC announced that the Muslim Brotherhood's Freedom and Justice Party won 36.6 percent of the 9.7 million valid ballots cast for party lists. Al-Nour followed with 24.4 percent. The Egyptian Bloc came third with 13.4 percent, followed by al-Wafd, which won 7.1 percent, and al-Wasat, which gained 4.3 percent of the vote. The Revolution Continues Alliance won 3.5 percent.

Below are the official results (as published in al-Masry al-Youm on December 4) of the top 28 parties that participated in the elections. These numbers will change based on the cancellation of the election results in the al-Sahel district on December 5:

1. Freedom and Justice Party: 3,565,092 votes (of a total of 9,734,513 valid votes)
2. Al-Nour: 2,371,713 votes
3. Egyptian Bloc: 1,299,819 votes
4. Al-Wafd: 690,077 votes
5. Al-Wasat: 415,059 votes
6. Revolution Continues Alliance: 335,947 votes
7. Reform and Development Party: 185,238 votes
8. Egypt National Party: 153,429 votes
9. Freedom Party: 136,784 votes
10. Al-Adl: 76,769 votes
11. Conservatives Party: 76,743 votes
12. Egyptian Citizen Party: 67,602 votes
13. Peace Democratic Party: 51,704 votes
14. Al-Ghad: 39,999 votes
15. Union Party: 39,527 votes
16. Arab Nasserist Party: 39,257 votes
17. Egyptian Revolution Party: 36,975 votes
18. Democratic Front Party: 33,293 votes
19. Egyptian Arab Union: 31,223 votes
20. Modern Egypt Party: 27,006 votes
21. Egypt the Revolution Party: 26,804 votes
22. New Independents Party: 10,792 votes
23. Revolution Guardians Party: 5,895 votes
24. Human and Citizenship Rights Party: 4,436 votes
25. Social Peace Party: 3,416 votes
26. Awareness Party: 3,180 votes
27. Arab Party for Justice and Equality: 3,156 votes
28. Constitutional Social Free Party: 3,047 votes

It continues with District-by-District results too.

http://egyptelections.carnegieendowment.org/2011/12/06/preliminary-election-results-2

Adam , let me try to clear out why the different views inside and outside Egypt over the current election are conflicting eachother

We are still in transit period and election not finished yet . No Constitution , no settled government. Big battles are running between all social and political leagues over the final shape of political system and limits of power of President and President. Military is using its current privileges in limiting power of Parliament having majority of brotherhood. Judges plan for writing a Constitution that suites civil state '' it is Judges vs Brotherhood'

Egyptian can view the battles and brotherhood compromise and military standoff against Islamic state from close distance , but readers from beyond borders are obcessed with one side ...the Islamist danger

During chaos of media and election you can read contradictory polls and see Salafi talking on his behalf , you from far outlook will believe that this the only truth about Egypt's future

The only thing I know true is that nothing settled yet even electorial outcome . There are two coming parlamentiary electorial rounds , there are also hundreds of complains filed against brotherhood candidates in the first round for rigging the election through campaigning election bureaucrates from brotherhood inside election stations , they also caught accosting some poor by offering them money

readers from beyond borders are obcessed with one side ...the Islamist danger

I think the same could be said of the Coptics who are inside Egypt .

During chaos of media and election you can read contradictory polls and see Salafi talking on his behalf , you from far outlook will believe that this the only truth about Egypt's future

We're not talking about "polls" now, we're talking about results. While it's true that the exact final tallies from the first round are not in yet, the government has announced initial results which reflect the Salafists winning 24.4% of the vote.

And you were the one quoting the (apparently pre-election) Salafist anticipating 15-20% of the vote. It was even better than he imagined.

I realize that ALL rounds of voting are not done yet. However, as I've already pointed out, this first round included Cairo and Alexandria. The other rounds, in smaller cities and countryside, are likely to give Islamists an even larger majority and stronger hand in framing the new consitution.

Yes there were certainly voting "irregularities" as we call it in the west, but from all reports I've seen they were not widespread enough to change the fundamental(ist) outcome.

Yes there is a lot of infighting for what happens next and who gets to govern. That won't change the fundamental(ist) new reality on the ground that Islamists won an absolute landslide in the election.
Yes the MB and al-Nour have their differences and frictions. The same is true among the many small, fractured "liberal" parties who were widely rejected in the election.

Could the military ruling council fudge, manipulate, or outright cancel and void the election because they don't (at least most people assume they don't) like the outcome? I don't think so, not once the results were released for all to see.

Can judges step in and prevent the new consitution from being heavily weighted toward the Islamists who won the election? Again, not likely. If the will of the people was less ambiguous, then maybe. This was as unambiguous as an election gets. An overwhelming majority of Egyptians want to be ruled by Islam and the men who claim to speak for it, not by pluralistic liberals whom we in the west may prefer.

And I'd rather judge final results because initial results could change even mildly

Can judges step in and prevent the new consitution from being heavily weighted toward the Islamists who won the election?

This is not about Judges , the current debate is over how many from Parliamet will participate in the comittee that will write Constitution. Apparantly military ruler might be against Ayman Nour but he is more incompatible with Islamic State , he will not let go with Egypt's future

Egypt's ruling generals have put themselves on a collision course with the country's new parliament after declaring that MPs will not have the final say over the drafting of a fresh constitution.

In a rare interview with foreign media, Major General Mokhtar el-Mulla – a leading member of Scaf – said the upcoming parliament would not be representative of all Egyptian people, and that those appointed to write a fresh constitution must also be approved by the interim cabinet and a newly-created "advisory council" of intellectuals, civilian politicians and media personalities, both of which fall under the control of Scaf.

This is not about Judges

I only mentioned judges because you did in post #10.14

Judges plan for writing a Constitution that suites civil state '' it is Judges vs Brotherhood'

Fada, I hope that things work out in Egypt, both for your sake and for the sake of other millions. Having said that, it's never a bad idea to be on the lookout for bad guys taking charge in any country. It can and does happen fairly often in world history. You seem convinced that it can't happen in Egypt. I hope you're right.

Thanks's Adam. I can't predict how things will go but I have faith that Egypt is not like that. Even the voting poor I've met in voting booths were not talking about religion , they don't need one to eat , they anticipate jobs and homes out of brotherhood promises. I set conversations with many of them, a man said to me: my son knows that if brotherhood broke their promises his unemployeed generation will be the cannon fodder of next uprise that will not be 'peaciful' like liberal's uprise. I guess brotherhood is in trouble

Fada,

...."possibilities"....:

of one of MANY if's;

NOT a WILL-BE, just one of MANY if's.

IF,
the 'Muslim Brotherhood', were to GAIN the political Ascendance in Egypt;
would (?!),
The 'Brotherhood',
do THIS (?!):

Put ALL unemployed Egyptians "to work",
drilling in formation,
practicing with weaponry,
becoming unified in actions
with a chain of command
??!!

Now THAT, if THEY were the "winning" 'Brotherhood',
MIGHT be what I would think that They MIGHT DO !!

First, make the People "content" with paid work;
and
Two, the "paid work", would be the Formation of a Very LARGE Egyptian Army.

Fada, I know that you perceive my "drift" ....

you know that,
I remain Yours,
Sincerely,
mork

Mork , I get from your focussing at military arming that you are looking at Brotherhood from the angle of Israeli fears considering some of their hostile statements

They will have nothing to do with military decision and expenditure. You can review ''al-Selmi document'' that was behind their protest at Friday-18 November

For the unemployeed , if brotherhood have intillegent minds as some people think they will understand that re-building economy is their only lifebuoy in political life. Their previous showy religious talk worked when they were in prison and unresponsible , this will not work after they climbed into power. If they didn't fulfil their promises they will face another kind of Tahrir , a violent one

May be this descrepancy is the result of cancellation of elections of all stations in El-Sahel district where Islamists rigged the election

Apparantly Brotherhood is losing battle with military over writing the Constitution

Muslim Brotherhood Quits Egypt’s Constitutional Advisory Panel

May be this descrepancy is the result of cancellation of elections of all stations in El-Sahel district where Islamists rigged the election

If so, then the lazy reporter(s) should have reported on that.

Apparantly Brotherhood is losing battle with military over writing the Constitution

Way too soon to make that conclusion.

...should've reported on that...

in the story I linked to, that is.

The election in that district is going to be re-held, according to your article Fada, so because it is a "rundown" (read "poor") district, the al-Nour % will still rise again, just maybe not quite as much as before. Thanks for the link(s).

For these all I made up my mind not to follow the results until the end of third round